Navigating Legal Hurdles in Renewable Energy: Insights from Matthew Karmel

In this enlightening episode of Green Giants: Titans of Renewable Energy, host Wes Ashworth delves into the world of renewable energy law with the esteemed Matthew Karmel. As Principal and Practice Group Leader of Environmental and Sustainability Law at Offit Kurman, Matt brings a wealth of knowledge and experience, making this episode a must-listen for anyone passionate about clean energy and sustainable development.

Key Takeaways:

• Matthew’s Journey: Discover how Matt transitioned from a prospective bankruptcy lawyer to a leading figure in environmental and renewable energy law. His story of aligning his career with his passion for clean technology offers valuable insights for those looking to pivot their professional focus.
• Building Expertise: Learn about Matt’s approach to gaining expertise in renewable energy. From joining industry groups and volunteering to writing articles and conducting extensive research, Matt shares practical steps for building credibility and skills.
• Interconnection Challenges: Matt discusses the current challenges with interconnection policies and costs in the renewable energy sector, highlighting infrastructure issues, regulatory gaps, and the need for updated policies.
• Financing Small Projects: The conversation explores strategies for overcoming the financing gap for smaller renewable energy projects. Matt emphasizes the importance of aggregation, non-traditional investors, and tax credit transferability platforms like Concentro.
• Practical Legal Insights: Hear real-life examples of how Matt and his clients have navigated legal complexities in the renewable energy industry, from obtaining land use approvals to handling acquisition challenges and litigation.
• Future Predictions: Gain insights into Matt’s predictions for the renewable energy industry over the next decade. He discusses the potential tension between community, larger-scale, and residential projects and the evolving role of legal frameworks in supporting sustainable growth.

Episode Highlights:

• Finding Deeper Purpose: Matt elaborates on how aligning his skills with his passion for renewable energy has enriched his professional journey.
• Advice for Transition: Practical advice for lawyers and other professionals looking to transition into the renewable energy sector.
• Navigating Interconnection: Detailed analysis of the legal and regulatory challenges associated with interconnection policies.
• Financing Solutions: Innovative strategies for securing financing for smaller renewable energy projects.
• Legal Success Stories: Compelling examples of overcoming legal hurdles in the renewable energy space.
• Industry Outlook: Matt’s optimistic yet realistic outlook on the growth and future of renewable energy.

Connect with Matt Karmel:

• LinkedIn
• Website
• Newsletter: 17 Simple Ways to Get Climate Clients
• Email: matthew.karmel@offitkurman.com
• Phone: 973-245-9905 

Wes Ashworth: https://www.linkedin.com/in/weslgs/

• Email: wes@leegroupsearch.com
• https://leegroupsearch.com/green-giants-podcast/
• https://leegroupsearch.com/

Transcript

Transcript

Welcome to Green Giants: Titans of Renewable Energy, the podcast where insights and innovation meet. Every episode, we dive into conversations with industry leaders, experts and change makers, bringing you the stories and ideas in the renewable energy sector that shape our world. And now let’s jump into today’s episode with your host, Wes Ashworth.   

Wes Ashworth (00:24)
Welcome to Green Giants: Titans of Renewable Energy. Today we’re thrilled to have Matthew Karmel, a prominent figure in environmental and sustainability law with a deep focus on renewable energy. As head of Offit Kurman’s Environmental and Sustainability Law Practice, Matt advises clients on renewable energy development, permitting and compliance. He’s a board member of the Mid-Atlantic Solar and Storage Industries Association and has extensive experience in sustainable development and climate change initiatives. Recognized for his leadership, Matt has been honored as a 40 Under 40, featured in the “Law Power 50,” and listed in “Best Lawyers: Ones to Watch in America” for Environmental and Energy law. Join us as we explore Matt’s impactful work in advancing renewable energy and his vision for a sustainable future. Matt, welcome to the show.

Matthew Karmel (01:10)
Thank you so much for having me.

Wes Ashworth (01:12)
Yeah, no, it’s a pleasure. So let’s start out with a little origin. Can you share a bit about your background and really the journey that led you to focus on renewable energy and clean technology law?

Matthew Karmel (01:25)
Yeah, so it was one of those falling into it and then making some intentional decisions. So while I was in law school, I didn’t think I wanted to do environmental law. I actually thought I wanted to be a bankruptcy lawyer, but I went to a law firm as a part time gig, and they looked at my background, which had some science, had some math, had those kinds of pieces, and said, “I would like you to try environmental, see if you like it.” And I was like, well, that sounds interesting. I’d never thought of that really as a purpose. And so it was great. I worked there coming out of law school, and it was traditional environmental law. So hazardous substance cleanups, site remediation, brownfields redevelopment, natural resources permitting, those kinds of things. And I did that for several years and then started to look at where my career was going and saw some gaps in Clean Energy Council in the New Jersey area and the firm I was at, at the time and saw a way that I could work on more cases that mattered to me, have more autonomy, have more control over what I was doing. And that was a win-win, you know, to get to do both of those things.

And so I started small, right? I picked a couple easy things to get involved with. And it’s kind of, I think a lot of the people who listen to this, who maybe are trying to make the switch, it’s hard to jump two feet in sometimes, especially without changing roles and those kinds of things. If you leave and go to a new company, that’s easier if you’re trying to switch while you’re at your existing company. It’s finding ways to do that. And also I think the renewable energy industry is very robust, right? There’s a lot of pieces that you need. There’s a lot of information, knowledge, expertise. And so I actually kind of came about it in a roundabout way, right? My first climate and clean tech legal jobs, legal clients were not in renewable energy. They were in waste and recycling with a slight renewable energy component. And then as that worked, I got more and more familiar with renewable energy through those projects and got other projects on renewable energy. And I think got involved in industry groups, in volunteer work, in pro bono work, which is a fancy word for lawyer volunteering. Just sort of slowly over the course of five or six years, assembled the skills and knowledge and connections to be able to work in the renewable energy industry. And a couple of years ago, I switched over to the law firm I’m at now, Offit Kurman, which is a full service law firm to launch their environmental sustainability practice. Cause I’d reached the point where I could do this full time. And it’s not like I’m a hundred percent solar or a hundred percent renewable energy. A very large percentage of my practice is focused on climate, clean tech, renewable energy, those green areas that I’m very interested in.

Wes Ashworth (04:35)
Yeah, no, I love that. And it’s such a good story. I think so many people want to just sort of instantaneously arrive, right? And kind of like, I love the story of, no, it starts small, you know, something that’s not exactly it, but there’s a little thread of that there. And then, you know, continue to grow that and expand that. So how many years was that transition going from starting to where you are today?

Matthew Karmel (04:48)
It’s really funny because one of the things that helped me was a mindset shift. Like I said, I’m a renewable energy attorney today, right? Like on day one, I decided I’m in renewable energy. So the first moment that I started writing articles about renewable energy law, I started doing any kind of thing. I was like, well, that’s me doing it. And so I immediately shifted my mentality into “I’m doing it already.” Doing that one thing means I’m doing it. But that’s the cheat answer to your question. I just think that’s helpful for people. But the actual answer is, it’s not a done journey. It’s still going on. But I felt like it took four years, so to speak, to reach critical mass. From zero to a critical mass was about four years.

Wes Ashworth (06:03)
Yeah, got it. Cool. And we’ll get more into that as we go. And something that you talked about when we talked prior was just finding a deeper purpose in your legal career. And I think that can translate across any career, but can you elaborate how aligning your skills with your passion for renewables has impacted your professional journey? Like you could have stayed the course of where you were, but really were intentional and aligning that passion with skill and now, you know, being where you are today. How did that help you? What was the impact of that?

Matthew Karmel (06:38)
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of different ways that it helps, right? Like one category of ways that it helps is it’s immediately rewarding, right? Like if you’re doing something that you’re not fully passionate about, it’s going to be harder to do, right? Because every job comes with its difficulties. Everything comes with its difficulties. You’re going to spend long hours, at least sometimes, doing stuff. You’re going to have to do projects that don’t really seem great on paper.

But you find your reasons for doing it, and meaning is a big one. I think the other people is authenticity matters in the marketplace right now, right? Like, whether it is legal jobs, whether it’s business relationships of any kind, people can tell when you’re faking it or when you really believe in it. And that’s not… Like I still also believe in fake it till you make it, right? Like because people have to grow in those kinds of things. But at the other side of that, right? Like if your passion is there, people will see it. And I have, you know, very trusted beloved clients who have used me for years. And one of them coined, not coined, but said to me, “You know, one of the reasons that we work with you is your mission aligned. You know, you have our mission at your core. And it’s not just because it’s our mission, right? It’s our industry’s mission. It’s your mission for climate. It’s your mission for making positive change. That’s part of who you are. That’s part of who we are.” So it goes together, right? And I think that that can be specific to industries, but can also just be, you know, it’s called a marketing trait, but like, it’s those aspects of your personality that people align with to reuse the word.

Wes Ashworth (08:31)
Yeah, no, that’s so good. I agree with you. I say this all the time that people are so savvy now that they pick up on when it is not authentic and your heart’s not in it. And it’s hard to succeed when that’s the case. I think aligning that passion and skill is critical. But to your point that we made earlier, you can’t maybe do it overnight, but start somewhere, start small, you and then slowly kind of transition into that becoming more of a full focus and those sort of things. So on that note, so for those, you know, maybe looking to transition to a renewable energy focus, what advice would you give them based on what you went through in your journey?

Matthew Karmel (09:16)
So I want to take a moment to plug something I’m really proud of, which is I felt like there weren’t a lot of resources for lawyers who wanted to make this switch. So after I had made some progress, I started a newsletter called the Planetary Lawyer Project, which is a fun name that I came up just with a newsletter to share exactly this, right? How did I do it? What am I doing? And also to share news, guidance, and job opportunities in the climate, clean tech, and renewable energy space. We have over a thousand attorneys reading that every other week it comes out. It comes out once every other week and I share these kinds of things, and I actually just did a mega list. I mean it’s not a mega list, it’s 17 things that you can do to get climate clients and it’s kind of relevant to what you’re saying, because it’s just 17 things that I’ve tried to do to make the switch, right? And we can drop the link to that in the show notes.

But right. Join a nonprofit industry group, join an industry group. And one of the things I have to say there is, listen, the national groups like SEIA, you know, those kinds of groups, they’re amazing. They can be expensive for people just starting out. You can usually find local groups that are less expensive to get involved with and be really impactful. So it’s one of those things about being selective and going where you’re going to have the most impact. I also think that, you know, there’s a lot of renewable energy content out there. I’ve written for lots of publications. We’re doing this podcast right now. This is a great way to do it. And I know this episode that we’re talking about is kind of like the journey of how I’ve done it, but I’ve also done podcasts on like really substantive topics. And for some, I researched the heck out of them ahead of time because I was like, well, I don’t know this, but it’s very interesting to a whole bunch of people. So let me research it to death and then I’ll have a treatise that I can describe in 60 minutes and go through and pick out the interesting points and things like that. It’s really great because it’s not like you have to know it on the fly. You can figure it out. So there are all those different ways. And then one of my favorite things in addition to that is volunteering. I do a lot of volunteering because it’s a great way to learn skills, right? If you’re sitting there going, how am I going to get someone to hire me to do this? And it’s not as easy for all professions. Like renewable energy project developers, maybe it’s hard to find relevant volunteering, but for lawyers, it’s pretty easy to find relevant volunteering in the different areas and help a nonprofit, help a disadvantaged community, along those lines to figure things out. So those are three things I really like. And I think one of the things you’re driving towards is you’re trying to build skills. So you’re looking for things that are going to help you build skills. You’re also trying to build credibility, right? Like that’s something else you want to think of. What aspects derive credibility? Publishing, joining nonprofits, industry groups, having leadership, those things all raise your credibility. And it’s kind of like, you’ve got to balance your skills against your credibility. And at the same time, I think the other sort of like, third piece of the pillar that I think about when I’m not sort of thinking about what’s the actual task I’m going to do, but one of the goals is visibility. Visibility, credibility, and skills, I think, are really the three things that’s how I evaluate what I’m doing as I’m trying to build the practice that will build my footprint in renewable energy. And so, there’s lots of ways to do it. And you can either think about it from the action step or from the result step, as I was just describing.

Wes Ashworth (12:00)
Yeah, no, I love that. And I love these kind of like, practical real-life steps. You know, I think people speak so much in sort of these generalities and these, you know, just kind of like utopian world-type of examples. But it’s cool to see like the real life, like here’s how it happens, you know, and even something simple, like, yeah, find the regional chapter for that association, get involved there, plug in there, you know, start somewhere, start here. So that’s cool. And I’ll transition, we will get into a little of the nitty gritty and just learning from your perspective and what you’re seeing. So one of the things we talked about was just interconnection challenges. Can you explain the current challenges with interconnection policies and costs in the renewable energy sector?

Matthew Karmel (12:43)
Yeah, and I think I kind of want to focus in on, it’s a big topic. So focus in on a couple things. So we have a regional practice and a national practice for renewable energy. So we see things in different states. We see them in different ways. And I think we’re seeing a couple recurring issues, which one is the infrastructure not being sufficiently up to date, such that you’re seeing closures of entire areas to solar. And that’s very difficult. And you’re seeing sort of like outdated policies that don’t necessarily account for zero export or battery storage or how that plays into the interconnection puzzle. I think you’re seeing an appetite to try to resolve those issues, but they’re kind of difficult. And we’ve gotten involved in different states to guide people through what their options are for interconnection on that front. And I think the other thing is sort of like its costs, right? That’s another part of it. And we’re seeing some interesting variability in different spaces. And we’re seeing some utilities get plagued by significantly increasing costs. And then you’re having disputes between the developers, the interconnection customers, and the utilities over what were the costs here, right? There was an estimate. And some states put limits on how much over the original estimate the final costs can be. Some states don’t, right? So you’re seeing that play out on a lot of different bases. And then I think you’re also seeing the interplay between interconnection and incentives, right? Like most state incentive programs have some kind of a deadline by which the project must be constructed. And we’re seeing in several states where the interconnection process is taking longer than it was promised to take or everyone expected it to take, and that’s coming up against incentive issues and you’re having to deal with these regulatory issues, which sometimes can be resolved just sort of with the utilities. Sometimes you need to bring in the public utility commission or board of public utilities to try to resolve that and figure out how that works but that’s a challenge that we’re seeing a lot of our clients deal with.

Wes Ashworth (14:43)
Yeah. And so I’m curious to learn from your perspective and someone listening to this that may be facing some of those challenges — I guess, what are some of the solutions today that people can sort of get more into and seek out? And then in thinking about the future, like, how is that going to evolve and what do you see changing and evolving in terms of the solutions and overcoming some of these hurdles?

Matthew Karmel (15:32)
Yeah, and think it’s a mix of what are the legal frameworks and what are the gaps in the legal frameworks and how can we solve that? And how do you deal with this on a relationship basis, right? Because there are plenty of instances where we solve this on a relationship basis. And sometimes we have the relationship and sometimes the client has the relationship and you just sort of figure out a way to solve it there. But it’s always done against the legal backdrop, right? State regulatory, state interconnection requirements of, okay, well, what does the regulation say? What is the requirement on the electric utility? What does the incentive program say? Mashing those two pieces up and seeing what the avenues are, right? Is it an administrative petition to the Board of Public Utilities? Is it a demand letter to the utility? Figuring out how those work and usually playing the relationship and the legal framework together at the same time. I mean, think we are seeing, these are like a whole bunch of different issues sort of all together that we’ve been talking about. I think we are seeing more states move towards capped interconnection costs, right? Like fixed percentages, those kinds of things. And I think that’s important to have certainty on those kinds of things. I don’t really know that I’ve seen anyone, seen any state yet do a great job of the interplay between interconnection timing and incentive availability. I think that’s kind of being done on an ad hoc, post hoc kind of basis where it’s just like everyone’s figuring out as they go. But I think you are seeing a lot of advancements in interconnection regulations as to how does net metering handle, how does zero export get handled, how does battery storage get handled? And I think, you know, New Jersey is going to a rulemaking on that front now.

Several other states that have gone through rule-makings there. I think we’re seeing the next wave of more efficient, more intelligent planning with respect to that. But it’s hard to say where it’s going to go, just because I’ve heard so many really interesting and varied proposals. And it’s sort of one of those interesting issues of, you’ve got 50 states trying to come up with their own programs for this. And so beyond predicting that I think we are on a decent path with respect to interconnection, and that we’re going to see some proliferation of those smart ideas that some of the front running states are having, you know, I’ll have to cop out.

Wes Ashworth (18:14)
Yeah, I get that. Is there a, I guess, an easy solve, not an easy solve, there’s probably not an easy solve, but a solve that you see when you look at from the state level and as you said, you’re like 50 different states kind of doing 50 different things, you know, and I knew that’s sort of just part of how it is, right? But is there anything that can change or happen or do you see anything to where states are starting to communicate more or at least be on the same page where it’s not so varied and so widespread across the different states?

Matthew Karmel (18:51)
Yes and no, right? I think one of the good things is that we have some utilities that are cross state utilities. So they’re all learning from those kinds of things. So you are getting some, like, regionalization, right? You have some regional industry groups like the Mid-Atlantic Solar Storage Industry Association that are working on a certain area. And so I think that kind of all, you know, deals with it. And then I think what we really see is the good ideas rise to the top, right? Like everyone wants a good idea, right? The states don’t want to have bad interconnection policies. There might be unique issues for each state, right? That they want to deal with, right? Like California is so big, maybe it’s always going to have its own particular quirks and things like that. And maybe California is always going to be different than Rhode Island, which Rhode Island is going to be driven so much more by offshore wind and all that than onshore things. So, you know, figuring those pieces out and how it works. So again, I just think it’s the good ideas will rise to the top. You’ve got some stakeholders that are cross-border stakeholders, and I think that’s just kind of going to work its way out.

Wes Ashworth (20:04)
Yeah, no, perfect. One of the other topics we talked about was, and this again, some of the challenges out there was financing some of the smaller projects. So, you know, it’s often a financing gap for smaller renewable energy projects, less than five megawatts. What strategies can developers use to overcome this challenge from your perspective and what you’re seeing?

Matthew Karmel (20:49)
So think this is a really interesting spot, right? Because I think what we’re talking about is the project’s less than five, maybe less than three megawatts. And how are they finding construction financing? How are they getting to that point? How are they monetizing, right? Like even just from a tax equity perspective, I think most tax equity firms are not coming in at that rate. So I think we’re seeing two pathways evolve, three pathways evolve for that approach. And one is the traditional aggregation. You’re seeing aggregation of these projects packaged together so that they meet the thresholds and can be sold to the bigger companies. If that’s your goal, is to sell it to the bigger companies. Second, I think especially after the Inflation Reduction Act, we’re seeing some non-traditional investors getting into the space, so they are not competing with the tax equity or the bigger groups. They’re coming in at a smaller number, I feel like. And so there is this like, I haven’t really found a good clearinghouse for it yet. I think almost you find it in the regional solar organizations, like just like word-of-mouth kind of thing. And so I know in the Pennsylvania region, we’ve got a couple, say, non-traditional investors that come in at that less-than-five megawatt. And so when we have those, when we have developers that are looking for projects in the, you know, and it’s beyond the Pennsylvania area, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, East Coast, you know, we’ve got a couple targeted investors that come in at that level. And so we just, we’ve got word of mouth to go there. And then I think the last really interesting piece is these clearing houses that are coming up for the transferability of the tax credits under the Inflation Reduction Act. And we’re seeing a couple of platforms, including one called Concentro, which match buyers and sellers of those tax credits. And that can really help to move the wheels for these smaller finance projects.

Wes Ashworth (22:49)
Got it. Yeah. And with that, the tax credit conversation, I know that’s a big issue, complex one. A lot of people ask about it and it’s a big topic conversation. I guess, what, from your perspective, what do people need to know? What do they need to look out for? And even some resources and things like that. It’s like, how do they figure out this challenge and how they’re able to go about it and make it work and sort of bring that all together? Because I know that is one people are sort of like, I think they know, but they’re a little bit confused or some challenges there and trying to figure it out.

Matthew Karmel (23:24)
I mean, there are so many pieces with it, right? That’s kind of the point. And if you’re not vassal in the tax credits, the important thing is to work with someone who is. I mean, and understand that there are different specialties even within that, right? Like when you focus down to the environmental adders that come into play for additional ITC credits, there’s going to be unique issues that you need some with environmental expertise for. And that’s something where we’ve come in on several projects and provided that specific environmental expertise in the respect to tax credits. But more broadly, you’ve got to work with someone who knows what they’re doing, right? Or learn it yourself. And there are a lot of good resources out there, right? Some of the big accounting firms put out resources. Other big law firms put out resources about this. I know that state and state industry groups, those state chapters that we’ve been talking about throughout this thing, they have local resources. I know that I’ve heard several in development because figuring out how all this works is really critical to people. So it’s work with the industry groups, work with the stakeholders that are involved, look for tax preparers, the big tax firms to handle it and talk to people about it.

Wes Ashworth (24:54)
Yeah, no, absolutely. And just to put a bow on the smaller projects and financing, so you mentioned some great sort of practical ways and ways that people can get this financing and investors sort of coming into the industry, which is great. And how do you find those? What do you see? How can the industry sort of provide better pathways for financing these smaller projects, which I think are really important and critical to the success of what we’re doing? What other solutions maybe do you see that could happen?

Matthew Karmel (25:33)
Of those pathways, if you’re asking me sort of like, dream a little bit further beyond what we talked about, right? Like I’d love to see more bank financing of like, small local banks, right? Trying to invest in communities. I think that’s what I would love to see. The problem that we get into is this interplay of complexity versus availability to access, right? Like it’s the same thing that you were just asking me about. How do people understand what to do with these tax credits, right? Like your local bank, there’s a huge investment cost to them getting involved in it. So I think it will take time, but I think it is important. It will be helpful as that knowledge becomes more widespread and it trickles down to have these smaller local initiatives funding projects.

Wes Ashworth (26:36)
Yeah, absolutely. So let’s transition a little bit into some practical applications, real life examples, which we touched on. But can you share some of those real life examples or stories of how you and your clients have successfully navigated the legal landscape of the renewable energy industry, some of the success stories, and what’s really happened?

Matthew Karmel (26:49)
Yeah, so it is so many different legal issues that might come up, right? So, the cherry picking different pieces. I mean, one of the most difficult things in lots of instances is getting land use approvals for a project. And it can be an absolute nightmare out there. It really can. And we had a nightmare scenario for one of our clients recently where they were building a solar project that was somehow in three municipalities at the same time. It wasn’t a big project, it was a small project. We’re not talking about, like, one of the mega projects or whatever that’s crossing hundreds of properties. A single property about 25, 30 acres was sitting in three different municipalities. And in that instance, we were able to use our local expertise to say, “Okay, this is how we’re going to handle it. You, this jurisdiction here, this one municipality, you’re going to take responsibility for all three of the sites. We’re going to just explain to you all why that’s the best way to go about it. And let’s get approval from one of you.” So that’s just like one specific example of how we turned something that was a really difficult scenario into something that was easy. And in that instance, we actually got our land use approvals, you know, in a matter of weeks, right, as a result of that, which was shocking, especially given the complexity of that project.

Wes Ashworth (28:37)
No, that’s a phenomenal example. Any other kind of key ones come to mind, just of real problems you’ve worked through and problems that you all have solved in the industry?

Matthew Karmel (28:47)
Yeah, I think we’ve got another sort of story where there’s a lot of acquisition that goes on in the industry. A lot of these, just that aggregation and moving. And we’ve had several instances where we’ve been coming in and it’s kind of been a mess, right? Like you’re seeing a little bit less of sophistication maybe on the aggregator side than on the acquirer side. And just having to sort through, what’s the applicable interconnection tariff that you’re actually under? What type of project is this? What are the capacity limits? So it’s really a checklist of a lot of stuff of going through that acquisition and saying, OK, well, you’ve got to hit all 15 of these items and walk it through. And in that instance, it’s a major aspect of going through the process and figuring out what do you need to have, what do you not need to have, and talking that through with the parties and pricing that into the agreement, right? Because that’s the other part of it. There’s always an economic aspect to all of this. Every issue, every legal issue, like I sort of said earlier with legal frameworks versus relationships, every legal issue is a business issue at the same time. They just wear different hats. And so it’s figuring out how to handle that. And in that project was very, very complicated. And having to work through both the parties and the utility of, OK, what’s our pathway to energizing for this project and make it work, was pretty incredible.

Wes Ashworth (30:40)
Yeah, you know, as I hear it, it’s kind of like a lot of them, you’re coming in and it’s messy and complex and you know, that’s why you exist and why you’re needed in the world.

Matthew Karmel (30:52)
Exactly, exactly. Let me give you one more example, actually. So this is in a litigation context because we do litigation involving incentives, involving construction, and those kinds of things. And this was a scenario where we had a client that was putting together a portfolio of projects and was obtaining estimates from their client from their usual subcontractors to use as part of their bid. Our client won the bid and then said, “Okay, well, this subcontractor had higher costs than this subcontractor. They started picking who got what. They got sued by one of the subcontractors over, “Well, you didn’t pick me, and you used my numbers for the bid.” And in that instance, we went through the litigation process. We went through an expedited, abbreviated litigation process and ended up proving that, well, there was no binding agreement, no nothing. It was just an estimate provided in connection with the response to the proposal. So it was something where our client got completely out of that, with no need to pay whatever portion of the business awarded to the losing contractor.

Wes Ashworth (32:19)
Yeah, no, awesome. One thing I’m curious to hearing these stories, like what are the lessons that can be learned and those listening to the podcast that are in the industry, I know there probably are circumstances where they didn’t know or weren’t thinking about some of the implications here or somebody like yourself gets brought in too late and then you have to kind of come in and clean up the mess.

If you’re thinking about all the issues you’ve faced and solved and how you got around it, what are some of those key lessons that others can take away to go, “Okay, you know, as we’re approaching that same kind of thing, this is what I need to keep in mind or prepare for?”

Matthew Karmel (32:50)
This is kind of, this may sound silly, but if you have a question, ask it, right? There’s so many times that I see someone go, “It sounds quite right, but I don’t really know a hundred percent that it’s wrong. So I’m just going to not question it.” And I have someone I work with who’s a client who questions everything, right? Like he’s like, “That doesn’t quite sound right to me. Is it right?” 75% of the time, the answer is, yeah, that was right. It’s okay. And he goes, okay. But then 25% of the time it’s no, that wasn’t right. So I think, especially if you might not be fully comfortable with something, use that as an excuse to ask more questions than less questions, and think really critically and assume it’s wrong until you’re proven that it’s, until it’s proven that it’s right. Always assume that there’s a problem, which may sound like bad advice in a business context, but that doesn’t mean you treat your business partners like they’re doing something wrong. It just means internally in your thought process, you don’t assume something’s right. You assume it’s wrong and then just check all the ways it could be wrong. You still could have blind spots, like you were saying, Wes. And that’s when you have to have good partners, right? Good lawyers, good consultants. You have to be able to have people. Step one was figuring out what the right questions to ask were. Step two is having the right people to ask.

Wes Ashworth (34:34)
,Yeah, no question. Is there anything that you feel, sort of you encounter most often, in terms of where people are seeking advice or seeking counsel, those sort of things? Are there some things coming up 65% of the time or 70% of the time or something like that? What are some of those really dominant issues?

Matthew Karmel (34:47)
So there’s sort of things like that. I guess I’d say that land use is a major issue right now, the real estate permitting. So we’re seeing a lot of that coming through. And that’s one of those areas where you’re having these really sophisticated parties a lot of times going into more rural areas and trying to get projects permitted. Land use can be the Wild Wild West, right? We sometimes have the impression that legal frameworks, like they’re these rigorous things. And they can be, and they’re always frameworks. But once you go before a governing body, a planning board or something like that, then it’s a whole different story. And it’s important to have people who understand that and can balance the sophistication that you need with the local contacts. So that’s definitely something that we’re seeing a lot of. And then in the acquisition space, we’re seeing a lot of pricing dependent on the investment tax credit, right? And the different adders that are involved there and how that works and those mechanics. And I think those mechanics are still kind of being fleshed out. And so you’re seeing changes in the business deals as well as changes in how you document it. Because whatever you agree, whatever your handshake, you’ve got to put on paper.

Wes Ashworth (36:19)
Yeah, yeah, no, that’s good stuff. To transition a little bit, I always like to get sort of just different perspectives for people that are seeing different pieces of the industry and how that all comes about. But I am curious to hear from you, just what you see in the future. So what are your predictions for the renewable energy industry over the next 5, 10 years? Any bold predictions, or maybe not bold, but things you just see coming?

Matthew Karmel (36:36)
I think you’re going to see this tension between community and larger scale and residential, which you’re already seeing, but I think that’s going to come a lot more to the forefront. And I say tension because they’re competing for infrastructure space. And so it’s going to be interesting to see how it plays out. We’ve got the Inflation Reduction Act tax credits for a while, so for the foreseeable future, we’re on that. And then otherwise, I saw this really interesting presentation. And I can’t remember who was giving it, but it was an academic presentation about where are we going, right? And it was focused on intelligent design of our end goal for renewable energy in a specific state. And the talk was mapping out, what’s the balance between wind, solar, battery, and different things. And they were arguing for overbuilding generation assets and imposing curtailment as a way to mitigate discharges to the grid and those kinds of things. And it was fascinating to me because I’d never thought of curtailment to that extent, as a regulatory tool to meet our clean energy goals. And it’s such a dramatic change to our incentive tax credit structure, right? Our incentives and tax credit structures assume no curtailment or limited curtailment. The moment you get curtailment, you change the economics of projects. I’m open to whatever’s best for society, but you just have so much money invested in solar already. That was one of those things looking down the road I was going, how are you going to do that? If that is the best idea, how are you supposed to do that?

Wes Ashworth (39:07)
Any thoughts there?

Matthew Karmel (39:09)
No, I don’t think it’s possible. I don’t see how it’s possible.

Wes Ashworth (39:14)
Right, right. Yeah, so from just your perspective and the legal side of things, so how do you see the role of legal frameworks evolving to support the growth and sustainability of these renewable energy projects?

Matthew Karmel (39:31)
Yeah, I think we’re seeing advancing policies, right? Inflation Reduction Act, I’ve talked about several times. We’re seeing a lot of state policies around incentives, land use. I think New York’s got a great model where they’ve got their central siting board that can take jurisdiction from local land use boards. I think you’re just going to see this proliferation of good policy because we’re seeing good ideas. We’re seeing solutions to some of the problems. But I think you’ve got all of that. And then we’re going to continue to see lawyers get involved in the transactional aspects, the permitting aspects, those different kinds of pieces, which maybe there’s nothing new or sexy there, but everything maybe is more interesting is on the policy front. But it’s still going to be, I think, a very powerful role for lawyers in that development.

Wes Ashworth (40:31)
Yeah, without a doubt. No question. So we’ve got a few questions left here, and these will be bit more open just to get any parting wisdom out there. So as you look back on your career and the contributions you’ve made to the renewable energy sector and will continue to make, what legacy do you hope to leave behind?

Matthew Karmel (40:55)
I really hope to leave the idea that it’s possible, right? Like through the newsletter, I talked about the Planetary Lawyer Project. I try to show lawyers, you can do it. You can do it today. There’s a 30 second action you can do today to do more of this work. And so I think that applies to everyone. So I would like the belief that anyone can do it and that you can do it today to be my legacy.

Wes Ashworth (41:28)
Yeah, I love that. It’s so good. And what are your thoughts, feelings in terms of just your outlook for the industry over the next even couple years? I know it’s some are up, some are down. There’s a lot of competing truths out there. What’s your sentiment on growth and trajectory and where the industry’s headed?

Matthew Karmel (41:51)
I feel like there’s so much capital that I have to vote up, right? And so I think we’ve seen so many jobs flood in this direction. Even if it’s not as up as fast as it’s been going lately, it’s still going to, I think, be steadily moving towards an upward position.

Wes Ashworth (42:12)
Yeah, no, absolutely. I feel the same way. And then just to open it up. Any other sort of parting words of wisdom, any other key takeaways that you would want listeners to walk away with from listening to the episode, just final thoughts?

Matthew Karmel (42:29)
There are lawyers who care about this is probably the takeaway. And I really do want to touch back on that because I was very grateful that you gave me the chance to say that, which is it’s possible to find meaning. It’s possible to find meaning in these careers. It’s possible to make shifts in careers. All of that is possible. And it starts with passion. It starts with clarity, really, of what you want to do and then getting excited about it and trying to do it.

Wes Ashworth (43:00)
Yeah, in my heart, I mean, I do feel like that’s what the industry needs, you know, more and more people that really do have a heart and passion for it. You know, obviously, as you know, and you probably see there are bad actors out there and we all hear about those stories, which really harm the cause and those that are in it for, you know, maybe the wrong reasons. But when you have that passion and alignment there tends to just, you know, set your trajectory in the right direction, doing the right things, going about it the right way, you know, creating good reputation and helping the cause. I love that parting advice. That wraps up our conversation with Matt Karmel, Principal and Practice Group Leader, Environmental and Sustainability Law at Offit Kurman. Matt, it’s been fascinating to delve into your extensive expertise in renewable energy and hear your thoughts. Your work in advancing renewable energy initiatives and your leadership in the industry are truly inspiring. And to our audience out there, as always, thanks for tuning in to Green Giants. Thank you, Matt, for sharing your insights and vision for a sustainable future with us. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, share it with your network, stay tuned for more enlightening discussions with leaders in the renewable energy sector. And until next time, keep pushing for a greener tomorrow.